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[Table] IAmA New York City underground poker player/grinder/rounder .. AMA

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Date: 2012-08-28
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How do you find out about these games? (Friend of a friend of a friend?) Are they mostly hosted in Manhattan or within the other boroughs and NJ as well? I've been around the games for awhile, and through the loop I've discovered more games. I started out when Manhattan would have places with 14 cash games pumping before the big shooting then they really cracked down on it.
Any casino tournament players in this? Casino players love them because it's a lot more action and talent pool is very slim. Yes there are tournaments aswell, all sorts
What's your style? New age aggressive online type or old school mathematical? I work in Information Security and part of my work is social engineering gigs where I even worked with Law Enforcement to understand body language. Have you used something like that to your advantage? Most n00bs try to look for microexpressions when it's usually the feet and torso that are sure tells. So for huge winnings, how do you stash it away? Deposits of less than $10k in different accounts? What's your educational background and before you decided to make this your living, what was your work profile? Did you start of at casinos or was it always clubs? My style is and has always been tight aggressive. I'm very selective with my hands, everything has to go into consideration. Micro expressions are good of you pick it up and you're right about the 'happy feet' and torso. There are many many tells to pick up on in addition to timing and betting patterns and tilt factor. All those things give away valuable information. Figuring out what to do with the money is always a good problem to have and im business/street savy so I find options. I went to Baruch University and ran my first game in the school lol. We actually made the papers. I dropped out to open a clothing boutique (investment came from poker) It was always clubs and casinos were secondary but still profitable.
I'm reading this while in class at Baruch, I remember people used to play in the 3rd floor game room, but they seemed too good so I never got involved. Yep gameroom .. Where it all began. We had official tables there and everything!
What do you mean by happy feet/ torso? how can you see this at the table or casino? You can't see happy feet in most cases. Torso movement you can pick up by the shirt moving, it also depends on how close you are to the villain.
Hey, thanks for the AMA, just a few questions. Do you still consider it gambling or has it become another form of employment? Also what's your average income? Does it frighten you that you may lose a lot of money due to pure chance? Biggest win/loss? What are your thoughts on online poker? If given the opportunity would you choose another job? I havent considered it gambling since i got a real grasp of the game. I don't gamble. Never played a table game, scratch off. I won't even play lotto. All my friends are degenerates so I know the deal. My biggest win was 56k but I was being staked so gave away 60%. Biggest loss is 2k. Online poker is free money if you know what you're doing. A bunch of my close friends moved to Canada just to be able to play, 4 guys combined bankroll over 2 mill. I've gone too far in poker to walk away from it. It's like 2nd nature, most places would rather me not play because I'm a tightass or parasite in their eyes lol.
What was the buy-in on the stake game? I usually play 2/5 or 5/5 and sit down with a nickel ($500) Sometimes there are really good 1/3 games and I sit with 300.
being staked. Sorry - what does that mean? Yea it's when someone buys you into the game and get a % of the profits but covers the loss entirely in the event of a loss. I only let people stake me in bigger games I wouldn't normally play with my own money.
Knowing the games like you do, what is the lowest bankroll you'd consider having to sit at a $2/5 table? I go with the 20/25 buy-ins rule because I've went on bad runs before and I would rather have the insurance. So you if buyin for 300 to sit comfortably I want to have at least 6k to work with. Most people dont follow any kind of bankroll management and go broke over and over again.
What happens if you lose all the money? I understand they get nothing back but is that really what happens or do you have to pay a little back to them as a show of goodwill? Or do they just bust you kneecaps and call it even? Nope lol, stop watching Sopranos .. They take the hit as a bad investment. So far im up with all my backers
You have never had to pay makeup? Nope.
How about ARod? I've heard he's been to these underground spots on occasion. I was at the club when he was playing. You would be surprised how many celebrities I met at games. I have met more in clubs than in casinos.
What is the culture of these games like, or does it vary wildly? I saw some elderly Jews in your pictures - is that typical, or are there businessmen, or mostly gambling types? Do women play? Do you often play against the same people or does it cycle out fairly regularly? If I WERE to, ahem, get involved in these games, how what would I want to look for in a "good" room vs. a "bad" room, if there are such categories? I guess, what makes you prefer one place over another? They vary very wildly. Most places are a mixed crowd especially since nyc is a big melting pot. There are also games that are all albanian or asian etc.. One of the biggest factors in game selection is the rake/chop. There are some games that flat out rake 10% with no cap.they do this because they give out credit and because they are greedy. A good realistic rake for a city 1/2 or 2/5 is 10% with a $15 cap. Also you want to play against action players not tight ass grinders.
How many games are typically going on (say, in Manhattan alone) a weeknight vs. a weekend? It sounds like you've been around a while - do you have any sense of roughly how many people in the NY area are doing what you do, i.e. making living off these games? Dozens? Hundreds? More? At any given time from 8pm to 4am there are dozens of live cash games going on. Weekends most places open up earlier than weekdays because of the usual working clientele.
How would you compare the average skill level? For example, if you play online what stakes would you compare these games to? The skill level now is tougher than it was 5 years ago. When ESPN had poker on all the time it was literally free money if you knew anything. Now bad players lost tons of money and tightened up, still plenty of money to go around if you know where to look.
The most common games especially in the city are 1/2NL and 2/5NL .. Although the past year or so Omaha and rotation have been gaining momentum because it's so much more action.
Instead of putting up with 10% $15 cap rake, why don't you just take the bus/train/drive to AC and play at the Borgota? I go to ac and Parx frequently but you CANNOT compare the action in clubs vs. casinos
Meaning the action in casino's is more? Right? So why would you not want to play in them? The action in clubs is more.
Borgata or Parx: which do you prefer, and which has the better action for a moderate-skilled 1/2 player? Also, Casino 1/2 PLO; is the preflop action as heavy as it's rumored to be? I've heard that at Borgata, typical preflop PLO pot is $70. I get to Parx in a hour, borgata in 2. I would go to Borgata for the weekend and give it 3 solid sessions. Borgata has more talent but there's still money for the taking in 1/2. The 2/5 in Parx is juicy if you go at the right time. Well yea in a action packed game it's going to be potted preflop. Te underground games it gets repotted often, W I L D.
I would think you have more experienced players in clubs, where you need to know people to even be allowed in the game, than the casino, where someone can wonder over from the slots. Word spreads quick especially with free rolls and stuff so people brings friends and friends of friends.
So how is Teddy KGB doing these days? Prick still owes me 2 dimes.
I see you smoke reefer. Is drug use something you see often? Are you willing to share if that answer is yes? Yes and yes I guess.. It goes w the territory, there used to be games that would spark up the entire table nonstop.
How much money have you made? I don't even want to know how much I'm up lifetime because i spent so much money doing crazy stuff. I used to not keep track but I average 2k a week for 3 1/2 nights work, cash obviously. I should've been saving but for 5 years I was making more because of action and more bad players. Also, going around the world, crazy shopping and living life.
How are you making so much from 1/2 a week? is bluffing a big part of your game? I still dont know how to incorporate it into the 1/2 cash games since most people are willing to call you light. I play 1/2s in Brooklyn. It's a younger crowd and they're either overplaying or scared money.
Do you launder your money at all? Only when I forget to take it out of my pockets.
You mentioned action at the clubs is way looser than that in casinos. What are we talking about here? Are there a lot of LAGs? Loose passive? How do you find out about the games? Are they open to anyone, or do you need an invitation or someone in the know to bring you in? How are you supposed to overcome a 10% uncapped rake? You need a huge edge over the table to make that work. Is the play that bad? Loose passive for the most part, business men that get out of work and want to fool around before going home. They won't even play, just fish. They are open if someone brings you in and vouches for you.
Where's the advice? We're all ears.. I was bluffing.
Let's say I wanted to host games. First, is there money in it? And how does the house get paid? How much would the house make from a typical game you go to? What does the house provide? Just a secure location and a dealer? Yes and waitress/massage girl. You can rake a % from every pot. You can also do a tournament with a fee say $100+$15 for the house. They make a fee thousand a night before expenses. Big games make alot.
What would the typical % per pot be? 5% with a cap is optimal for you so you won't affect the game much and still make a few.
Ever bang Famke Janssen? No but I wouldn't mind owing her money and have her come try to collect.
So you were setup by the house and not the players? Did they deal from the bottom or something? What hand did you lose with when you were 'set up'? I think I flopped a straight and he rivered a boat. He had a loaded deck, did a fake shuffle and ..
How could you tell you were being setup? 1st hand new deck, and house player beats cash player on the river suckout.
Damnnn... doesnt the deck get cut after every shuffle before the deal? I dunno the typical underground shuffling/dealing routines so I really am curious. If they can fake a shuffle they can fake a cut too eh. Although; I'm assuming there aren't permanent dealers unlike what you'd find in a casino. When a new dealer comes in every 30minutes they have a deck. They're supposed to fan it out and show the players, sometimes they'll just wash or shuffle to speed things up.
While it looks suspicious I don't think that's enough info to conclude that the hand was rigged. I've seen suck outs like that in casinos yet nobody ever would make that conclusion but because it's an underground game suck out on the river is a set up? Aren't you jumping into conclusions too early? Or did you actually see more suspicious hands which added up to the whole game looking suspicious? I've taken nasty beats as well. In Vegas I lost w quads twice in one night (no BBJ) it just didn't add up, i felt a very bad vibe and I took a shot and approached the guy. He could've denied and taken his stand but he folded instead.
Could you talk about the 1998 movie "Rounders," and how realistic/not realistic the movie was? Surprisingly realistic to some degree.
Was it really based on norm macdonald? Does a zebra have spots?
Some might.. still doesn't answer the question. I'm not aware of any Norm McDonald connection.
Thanks for doing this AMA. What do you think the biggest weakness in your game is? Do you ever pick up on live tells? I havent really been able to spot any and wonder if there is anything to it. Do you love the rounding life? Regret it? My biggest weakness is not playing more often. I do well so I only play 3/4 times a week because of gf, family, business ventures and life. Also I usually cash out once I triple up. I figure if I book a win for a thousand im satisfied, sometime I should stay of game is juicy. I pickup new tells every session. My people reading skills are definitely up to par. The money is good but the lifestyle around it is crazy .. The late night hours and characters involved. I don't regret it for a second, poker has been supporting me for a long time and has given me a flexible schedule to do other things on the side like go on reddit lol.
Thanks for the response! The one pattern I have noticed is if I play 4-5 days in a week my level of play seems to go down. Then if a take a break for a few days I always come back to stronger. I guess regarding tells there really are no global signs and its just very person specific? Caros book of tells.. Use that as your foundation
Hey man, thanks for the AMA. Enjoyed reading it so far and have a few questions. Do you still enjoy playing? Is it more work now, or a bit of both? I ask as you mentioned you don't play too much. What's the biggest misconception, or thing that people get totally wrong about what you do? A lot of people here / on Reddit will ask about playing like a pro, but only for use in their house playing against friends and family. Would there be any more general advice you'd give to people in this situation about which aspects of their game to aim to improve? Cheers. More work now .. People that dont know me and they don't know the grind just think I gamble it up trying to get lucky. I sit and wait then keep sitting and waiting and think and analyze players. Lot of information gets processed I before I even get involved. It takes me at least an hour or so to get a feel for the game. Be aggressive!
I just started playing poker, doing usually 6 table micros on LockPoker or so, and coming out for the most part winning. I have the hardest time with implied odds though, and using them accurately to calc EV and such. Can you explain them a little to me? Its just not second nature to me yet. I played a .5/1 live cash game last night and busted, it sucked but I guess its fine, last time I went I came out hundreds up, How do you deal with the bad beats? I have read mostly every 'good' poker book, but what one would you suggest I re-read? If you are playing in underground rooms, do you skip (some/all) taxes? Name on 2+2? I just got back an hour ago from a long night, I'm sorry I don't want to type novels about ev or implied odds (google it) .. I deal with bad beats very well. I do NOT get emotional, if it's normal bad beat i simply play as if nothing happened. I'll actually get more action from the table because they assume I'm steaming. If its a huge monster bad beat I either cash out or take a trees timeout, that does the trick. No clue about the book, I've read and analyzed them all and you can extract valuable info from even the worst one, it's all about the experience on the table on my eyes. I have a side business for tax purposes.
What is the business? I import merchandise and sell on amazon/ebay and to retailers
How old are you? How did you start finding these games? How long have you been playing poker? 27, I was 18 when I first discovered what goes on behind shady looking doors.
Talk etiquette. Is everyone friends? If not, are you friendly with these strangers, or is it all business? Do you shake hands, joke around, etc, or sit down, play and leave? Very friendly usually.
I see a big jewish community, as a palestinian will i get harrased if i go to one of these clubs? Not at all. Somehow everyone blends well in poker games. I know a lot of palestinians that play on the regular.
What would be the best way for a beginner to improve their game? Any specific books that you would recommend? Super system thoroughly to get your brain thinking about it. There are plenty of very good forums online (2plus2). Plenty of resources out there.
How much time do you put in studying the game away from the tables? I've always heard that for every 4 hours you play, you should spend 1 hour studying (reviewing notes, reading the books, 2+2, etc). Is that an accurate ratio? I've read all the books and go on forums all the time. I don't really have a ratio
How much do you rely on math in your play? I have a strong math/statistics background, I just finished reading Mathematics of Poker by Chen and Ankenman. It covered basic probability, bayesian probability, game theory, and heuristics for quick calculations. Do you find yourself using this stuff or is your play more intuitive? My play is more intuitive.
How much do you usually go in the room with and how much do you take out? Since every place knows me and I'm not stupid I dont walk in with cash just in case spmething goes down. If I lose I just take care of it after the game or day after. I usually have 3 bullets of 500 each. That's for an average 2/5 or 5/5 to sit down comfortably.
Do you give lessons? If so how much? I gave pointers to friends and have helped people bring their skill level up. Me and some friends were thinking of marketing private poker lessons but im too lazy. If you're close by I wouldn't mind helping you, what's your offer?
Thanks for your input, gambling is not allowed in this sense in iceland so there is no culture for that, from as neutral or personal of a standpoint that you can manage, do you think gambling in this sense is good for a society/community or does it make t worse? I don't know about society but I'm glad poker is around.
My question is how deep is Chinatown? I have heard there is gambling behind every Canal Street store creating almost a second level. Can you confirm and describe any of the places you have been in Chinatown? That was not so recent. I'm sure i could find games in c town but they all speak chinese and I definitely don't trust that.
Do you have alligator blood? Also how does one find these games? You gotta be in the loop and I'm not sure about the blood, gotta ask my primary care physician to be sure.
So presumably a lot of guys are making their living money this way? Where does the money come from? How do rubes get into the game (so that they can give you their money)? Actually most people at these games come to gamble and hangout.
What's your cover story? Do you work a day job to keep up appearances, or do you just try not to live too extravagantly and draw too much attention? Does your girlfriend/family know this is what you do? Yes they know what I do and I do daytime work as well. I definitely calmed down compared to how I used to live.
Is dealing at things like these done how movies depict it or how you would at a house game, with the "dealer" role actually moving with the button? Or is there a dedicated dealer for each game? Curiosity as a casino dealer. Same as a casino dealer.
Do you ever splash the pot? No but it's on my bucket list.
Biggest pot you were involved in? Win it? 38k pot .. Won 56k that session but I was being staked so only kept 40% .. Still booked a monster win so couldn't complain.
Wow awesome, do you look up to any pros? would you play HU with any of them if you had the br? My style is more for a full table. I know a bunch pros personally and I invite them to games when they are in town. I fly to vegas on the regular just don't want to move there because I have too much stuff going on here.
Tips on finding these games? if i live in a different state. Ask around? I can smell a game and I can pick out a poker player out of a crowd .. I'm a sick child.
What was your revelation in the game? I mean what insight really opened up your game and made you a good player instead of an average player and seperated you from the mass? I started out dealing before playing for real. After a few months I noticed that players are making plenty of mistakes I could make them pay for. I slowly started grinding and found my style and it's been working for me for a long time. It's just a grind, you wait for your prime opportunity then you maximize and wait again.
Most profitable exploit? Reraising a tilted aggressor with a set if you know he hit anything good.
Lol. step one. flop set. step two... make sure villian has something good and is on tilt. step 3.. raise. Yes, huge exploit you discovered there. Maybe you can give me a good example and I'll put it into use lol.
What's your best advice on becoming better in general at poker? Absorb as much information as possible and actually apply it! Find your leaks and seal them
Hi thanks for doing this. 2 questions. How did you fund your initial bank roll? What is a good way to work on reading people? I organized a house game and raked a little bit and went from there. Caros book of tells and just start watching people. Look at the flop and your hole cards last, first watch players and pickup info to use. You'll get used to it after awhile.
How good are you at online poker? Definitely rusty havent played for real in years.
What do you generally buy in with for a 5/5 NL? I usually buy in whatever the average stack is. If the biggest chip stack is a fish then I'll buyin for the max. $500 is the usual amount early in the night/game.
Is there anything you do to maintain your health? Sitting for hours while eating junk food and stressing over hands must take a toll on your body. I don't eat junk food and I try not to stress. I workout 5 days a week and play plenty of sports.
Is it "card-shark" or "card-sharp"? Shark.
How to you keep from going on tilt after losing a massive all in 80/20 ? I'm used to the bad beats. It's part of the game man.
How did you build your initial bankroll? I started out running a house game without any intention of playing for a income and once the game died out and I had about $800 and didn't look back m. Never went broke either, I'm owed plenty though.
You mentionned robberies/raids and it never involving the players , im wondering is your money somehow ( insured ) even in the case of a robbery by the hosts ? 99% of the time you wont get your money back, that why I dont walk in with cash. There has been cases where the house gives players money back out of their own pocket but usually people take advantage and lie about the amounts lost.
Do you play on Merge? I don't know what that is. I don't play online since they closed main sites I down years ago.
Ah, yeah just the network that US players use now. Was up in Canada last week playing on my dad's Pokerstars account. Goddam do I miss that shit. It'll be back.
Let's hope! :) Anyways in regards to your thread: what are some of the bigger names you've played with in these underground games? Players or celebrities?
Players. Matusow, jamie gold, Ivey for 5 minutes. Lots of Internet pros, sry I'm tired can't think straight lol.
When you play can you calculate in your head the number of outs, pot/implied odds and EV? I can roughly calculate the number of outs in certain hands and maybe pot odds, but it's still gets my head spinning. It boggles my mind that people can do that much number crunching in their heads every hand they are in, so I wonder if serious players actually do it? I ballpark it.
Is your thinking along the lines of "I have X many cards to make my hand, if I call $X I can win $X" and make your decision on that? That's about as far as I am right now with my thinking. For example, if I'm facing a call and I need one card to make a flush and say I need to call $3 to make $30, I will usually make the call. Is that proper thinking? Give or take .. I do all the equations in my heads during the actions while trying to read players and order a drink from waitress as I smoke a cigarette
As someone who lives an hour from AC, I can confirm that Asians love to gamble. Because they can't drive properly on the way there?
Do you ever plan on "retiring". If so, what will you? Sure why not.
I went to the casino last weekend for the first time. I went into the poker room and sat down at a 1-1 table with $60. As soon as I sat down I completely forgot how to play. I have been playing since I was like 8. I just got so nervous for some reason. Did that ever happen to you? Have you ever gotten so nervous you completely forget what you're doing? No.
Why do you think super system is relevant to the current hold em game? Frankly, why do you think 5/5 live poker is interesting enough for an AMA? I don't know.
Word met up? i have a few friends in bk. Send me a pm.
Does the place get shaked down by the mob? A few games pay for 'protection'
What is the best advice you can give to a player suffering consecutive losses? I always felt I was decent at the game, but my record lately doesn't seem to agree with me. Take a break and analyze your game. Maybe the stakes aren't right maybe your game selection is off.
What is your current bankroll? About 55k.
At what point will you move to 5/10? (i'm assuming these clubs run 1000NL, right?) I play 5/10 if a friend refers a juicy soft game to me.
The Sands casino in Bethlehem, PA has real juicy 5/10 action. $1500 max. I never had a chance to go. I'm going to check it out this coming weekend.
I'm curious about this.. I would never expect big faces in an underground scene especially since they probably know plenty of ("home") games. Why take a risk (seems like a small risk from what OP has been saying) when they can just play legit. Action and credit and comfort of it. Trees alcohol strippers whatever the players want basically.
You should crosspost this to /poker How can I do that? I'll give u poker advice in return.
I hope your not smoking them dutches also where in ny im in ny i want to play Bk all day.
Some horse/backer agreements will have a make-up or cake stipulation. The losses are originally eaten by the backer, but then a percentage of future wins goes towards paying back a percentage of the previous losses. True.
SPOILERS! I'm only on Season 2 :( He misses the gutshots :/
Came here to ask about robberies/raids. Go on.
Last updated: 2012-09-02 17:16 UTC
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